Father is not the Son, but there's no Trinity

Analogy for Father and Son. Our subconscious mind (the father) controls and communes with the conscious mind (the son).

An interesting question in defence of the Trinity

Godhead Question

I have been studying the Trinity for a while now, and I almost came to conclude that God is indeed triune until your website showed up and I clicked and I read. Most things I agree on, some not so much.

For example, I believe that Jesus is God, but I don't believe that Jesus is created He has always existed. You said and I quote "He then created angels to worship Him in Heaven. But angels could not worship Someone that they could not see. So He made a spiritual Body for Himself and “shrunk” Himself so that He dwelt in that Spirit Body on a throne." This indicates that God changed His form, we have established that God does not change, and He cannot change. Another minor thing I don't agree with is the use of KJV only, I do believe that some translations shouldn't even exist but you have others including KJV that do very well, my personal favorite is the Amplified Bible. From what I have read so far, even though you don't believe in a trinity, I have to admit that it seems like something that you are trying to ignore whether that is your intention or not. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, distinct in roles, one in nature and that nature is God. I also don't believe in the depictions of the trinity that people draw, but that doesn't mean it's pagan. Pagans also pray to their gods, we pray to our God doesn't make us pagan just because they do it. 

Matthew 28:19 

Jesus said baptize them in the name of the Father, son, and Holy Spirit. Also if I may add, their is an economic trinity which relates to the roles and functions of each person in the trinity. Father is greater than Son, yet are God. Holy Spirit comes from Father and Son yet is God.  and then ontological trinity. which is how they relate to each other. If there is not trinity how can God be love, in order for love to exist there must be a lover, the beloved, and the love between them. God is relational who was He relating to without the angels and humans? If we get to the new heaven and new earth, will we see God the Father?

Quick answer.

The Spirit of Jehovah God prepared a virgin-born Body for Himself but it was His eternal Spirit that dwelled in that Body. Then God never used the name Jehovah again and called Himself by the new name of Jesus.

Jehovah is translated as Lord in Hebrew but God stopped using Hebrew and changed to using Greek in the New Testament. After all, it was the Hebrew speakers who crucified Him. So knowing Hebrew did not help those Jews to discover the truth.

Thus Jehovah fell out of use as a name and was never used in the New Testament.

The Jehovah of the Old Testament became the Jesus of the New Testament.

The same God in a brand new Body that could die for our sins. The Spirit or nature of the indwelling God never changed but He had to change the Body that He lived in. He had to be in a Body that could die.

So yes, the Spirit in Jesus is the eternal Spirit of God. But it was a new Body that had been prepared. For the first time, God could live in a Body that had blood. This had never happened before.

You don't change when you change your clothes. God's nature never changed when He changed the bodies that He lived in.

In defence of just using the King James Version of the Bible

DEUTERONOMY 4:2    Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

We must not add or remove any words from the Bible.

To change a word, you have to remove the original word and then add in something different. So, if you have two different versions of the Bible then you are disobeying God because something has been changed.

For example, Matthew 24:28 says “aetos” which means eagles.  Vultures is gypes in Greek.

So, the amplified Bible and NIV and various other Bibles all interpret “aetos” as vultures to fit their interpretation that vultures feed off a corpse. But they are changing the word. Aetos means eagles. Thus, modern translators change words to fit their understanding of what they think those words should be. That is deadly.

Please explain what Matthew 24:28 means? "Where the carcase is, the eagles will gather".

And what does it mean if you change "eagles" to "vultures"?

You will never get the real truth by changing words.

The Godhead dispute


For example I believe that Jesus is God, but I don't believe that Jesus is created He has always existed. You said and I quote "He then created angels to worship Him in Heaven. But angels could not worship Someone that they could not see. So He made a spiritual Body for Himself and “shrunk” Himself so that He dwelt in that Spirit Body on a throne." This indicates that God changed His form, we have established that God does not change, and He cannot change.

Quick answer (followed later by more details).

God is a Spirit. The Spirit of God needs a Body to dwell in to be seen.

The Spirit is not created. The Spirit is the nature of God that never changes. God, calling Himself Jehovah, just created bloodless bodies for Himself that could not die. A Pillar of Fire. A Cloud. An Angelic body. A Rock. Etc. The bodies could change, like you change clothes but the indwelling Spirit of God never changed.

God appeared inside the body of a Man to wrestle with Jacob and put his hip out of joint so that he limped. Thus, God symbolized that He wanted Jacob to walk differently and be an honest man, not a cheat. But this Man, coming from Heaven had no blood in Him and was never born, thus He was not a near Kinsman to us humans. He was too different. But wrestling with Jacob as a Man meant that God was showing Jacob that He understood all the human issues that Jacob was wrestling with in his own mind.

So each of these God-bodies enabled God to act out some aspect of His relationship with man.

In Revelation Chapter 10 Christ comes down as the Angel of the Lord to perform the resurrection. Because He is in the body of an Angel, it is not a Coming of the Lord.

As the Angel of the Lord, God could fight with Lucifer and kick him out of Heaven.

The Spirit of God is eternal and that eternal, supernatural Spirit prepared a body of a Man for Himself to dwell in. The body of the Man had to be made, but the Spirit in the Man was the Spirit of God. God called Himself Jesus because He lived inside the body of Jesus. Not two Persons. An eternal supernatural Spirit living in a newly formed human Body.

Only when God put blood in the Body that He prepared for Himself, could God call Himself Jesus as then alone could He save us by dying for our sins. Once the name Jesus was spoken, the name Jehovah was never mentioned again.

Let us look at more details.

In the Old Testament God called Himself Jehovah or JHVH. In the Old Testament God never called Himself Jesus. The name of God was linked to the Body that He dwelled in.

There was no blood in Heaven.

I CORINTHIANS 15:50   Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

So, Jehovah’s Spirit had to dwell in a bloodless Body that could change its form. The nature of the Spirit never changed, just the form of the Body that He dwelled in.

A bright Light, a Man on the throne, the Angel of the Lord, the Man Melchizadek.

God just made these bodies for a brief purpose, lived in them to perform a function and then dissolved them. Much the same way that you wear certain clothes to perform certain activities. But in each of these “clothes” or bodies, Jehovah God was limited. He could only do certain things, not others.

As Melchizadek He was the High Priest but He was not a Kinsman Redeemer because He had no blood and He was not born of a woman. Thus, he did not fully share our human experience.

Jehovah God’s biggest limitation in the Old Testament was that He could not die for our sins. God is a Spirit and thus God cannot die.

In the New Testament, the name “Jehovah” is never mentioned. In the Old Testament, the name “Jesus” is never mentioned.

So, the Spirit that was called Jehovah in the Old Testament became the Jesus of the New Testament by developing His human characteristics that had always been in Him.

The Spirit of Jesus was not created. He had always existed as Jehovah but now He took on a new physical Body that was born of a virgin. He now had blood and He, as a Man, could die.

Light, in nature, has two opposite characteristics. Jesus is Father and Son

Natural light behaves like a wave that ripples out in all directions without limits like throwing a stone into a pond of water. Yet Einstein established that light also behaves like a localized particle with limits as if it is some kind of bullet. Those two ideas contradict each other. Yet both are true. We humans just cannot understand the dual or two-fold nature of light. Thus we do not know how light can do two opposite things. Light seems to have limits in some of its behaviour and yet seems to have no limits in its behaviour in other different situations.

Scientists had to think carefully. There was no quick fix to this dilemma. Niels Bohr from Denmark came up with some very useful advice. If you think of light as a wave then just forget about it being a particle at the same time. When you think of light being a particle, do not consider it to be a wave at the same time. Keep the two ideas of waves and particles separate and only apply one idea at a time to any situation.

Let us follow this approach as we think of Jesus as Man and God. As a human (Son) and as supernatural (Father).

After all, Jesus said that He is the light of the world.
JOHN 8:12   Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world:

Jesus sailed in a boat as a Man and slept. Don’t ask why God slept. God does not sleep. The Man that God lived in did sleep.  So, Jesus is not “just” a Man. He is Man and God.

Do not ask how He can be both at the same time.

For us that is impossible. But Jesus somehow manages to do the impossible.

Jesus walked on water as God. Don’t ask how a man can walk on water, because a man cannot. But Jesus was behaving as God. As a Man He ate, as God He multiplied a schoolboy’s lunch to feed 5000 men.

So, Jesus was God limited as a Man (the Son) when He slept and ate and sailed and died. Yet at the same time, Jesus was also God unlimited (the Father) when He discerned thoughts, healed the sick, raised the dead, and resurrected from the dead Himself. All the things that we humans cannot do. Just because we cannot understand how He can achieve such amazing events, does not mean that He cannot do it.

ISAIAH 9:6   For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus is both Father and Son.

So, Jehovah God Who had no blood and could not die, took on a new name in His new human Body that had blood and could die.

He ceased to be the bloodless Jehovah and became the blood-filled Jesus.

As Jehovah, He was a Spirit that could not die, so He never used that name again. He needed a new Body, and thus took on a new name, in order to bleed and atone for sin.

The Body changed, but not the eternal Spirit that was in the Body.

“God never changing” refers to the Spirit, not to the Body that He lives in.

Now comes the key issue. Jesus is two impossible opposites.

He is Man and God. He is Creator and Redeemer. He is King and Servant.

Yet Jesus is not two Persons.

For Jesus, you must never use the word “just”.

He is not just the Son. He is the Son, but He is also the Father. Sounds impossible

Jesus as a Person is all of God.

As the Father He is just the supernatural. As the Son He is just the Man.

But as Jesus, the fulness of God and Man, He combines both Man (the Son) and supernatural (the Father).

But the Man is in subjection to the supernatural.

COLOSSIANS 2:2   … the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

God, Father, and Christ. A real puzzle for the Trinity.

Trinitarians say Father and Christ (Son)  are two separate People.

But that does not explain God, Father, and Christ. God cannot be a separate Person to the Father.


I JOHN 4:12   No man hath seen God at any time.

JOHN 4:24   God is a Spirit:

JOHN 5:37   And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

So, God is an invisible Spirit that has no shape.

You will never see the Father because He has no shape. He is an invisible, supernatural Spirit.

If He wants to be seen, He has to clothe Himself in some kind of Body.

I JOHN 1:5   … that God is light,

This makes it sound like God is a bright light.

But the invisible God is dwelling in the light. The light becomes the Body that He dwells in. God Himself remains invisible inside that light.

I TIMOTHY 6:16   Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;

I CORINTHIANS 15:40   There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:

We live in physical bodies. Spiritual beings like angels live in spirit bodies or celestial bodies.

In order to look at the Egyptians through the Pillar of Fire, the invisible God had to live inside the Pillar of Fire which became His spiritual Body. That kept the Jews warm at night.

In the hot day, God changed His Body into a Pillar of Cloud to keep the Jews cool. God changes His outer Spirit or Celestial Body in the same way that you change clothes.

The nature of God does not change, just the Spirit Body that He dwells in changes. In each different Body, God performs a different purpose.

The invisible Spirit of God inside this Spirit Body never changes. It is just that His Spirit Bodies limit Him. The Pillar of Fire warms up the cold desert night but does not cool the hot desert day. It takes a Cloud to do that. So in the day, God dwells in the Pillar of Cloud.

EXODUS 14:24  And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,

God dwells in a Spirit body. Seeing that Spirit body is the closest we can come to seeing God.

EXODUS 13:21   And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

God changes His form, not His nature.

Jesus had a body of flesh and blood while He lived.

At His resurrection, He changed into a glorified Body without blood. But the indwelling Spirit of Christ who lived within those bodies never changed. It is the same for you, whether you wear casual clothes over the weekend or a business suit during the week. You never changed your nature, just your clothes.

I CORINTHIANS 15:50   Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

Blood cannot enter Heaven. So, Jesus shed His blood on the cross in order to get a glorified Body.

Animals were sacrificed, then Christ was sacrificed.

The Plan and Purpose of God never changed. Only the quality of the sacrifice changed.

Sabbath was a rest day from work in the Old Testament. Sabbath became the Holy Ghost baptism which made us rest from sin and unbelief.

The idea of rest never changed. In the Old Testament, they rested from their physical works for a day but then went back to work again. In the New Testament, they rested from their works of sin but never went back to those works of sin again. The idea of rest was unchanged. They just moved on to a deeper rest.


NUMBERS 23:19   God is not a man,

PSALM 2:7   I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Jesus, the Son of God, was born on a certain day. The human Man (the Son) had a start, but the eternal Spirit that was within Him (the Father) had no beginning.

There is no mention of “God the Father” in the Old Testament. This requires an explanation.

God only became “God the Father” when Jesus was born.

When there was no “Son of God” on earth, there was also no “God the Father”.

COLOSSIANS 2:9   For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Only when all of God could find a Man to dwell in, could God become “God the Father”.

But the human Body of Jesus and His human nature were always the Son of God, never God the Father.

God the Father was the supernatural Spirit that dwelled in the Man Jesus.

The human Man was not God because God is a Spirit, not flesh and blood.

If you say “God the Son” then you are saying that God is a man. That is not true.

Thus there is no “God the Son” in the Bible.

Nimrod is the only man called El Bar which is God the Son. So “God the Son” is pagan.

25 December in AD 275 was declared by Roman emperor Aurelian to be the birthday of the pagan sun god. We are never asked in the Bible to celebrate the Lord’s birth.

So, declaring 25 December as the Lord’s birthday is a lie and a pagan festival.

COLOSSIANS 1:19   For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

You are everything that is in you.

Jesus was thus fully man and fully God because all of God was in Him.

The Trinity contradicts this by saying that Jesus is in the Godhead. That is exactly the wrong way around. The fulness of the Godhead is in Jesus. Thus, the Trinity contradicts Scripture.

Jesus had human characteristics due to His physical Body or flesh, and supernatural characteristics due to the supernatural Spirit of God Who dwelled within Him.

I TIMOTHY 3:16   And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,

HEBREWS 1:3   Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

Jesus as a physical Man was the precise human image that God could dwell in. Jesus was the only Person whose words and behaviour revealed or manifested the full nature of God.

PHILIPPIANS 2:6   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

As a Man, He was not God. But because all of God was in Him, He could claim to be God.

The Father was the supernatural Spirit that was above the Jews and then lived in the Son, Jesus.

But the Father is the supernatural Spirit, and is not the human Man Who is the Son of God.

So, the Father is not the Son.

The Son of God is the human nature and the physical Body of Jesus.

My subconscious and conscious minds enable me to talk with myself

The supernatural mind and the human mind operate similarly to the subconscious and the conscious minds.

The subconscious mind (father) is more powerful but the conscious mind (son) has free-will and stops us from being robots. The subconscious has the characteristics of conscience which will argue with our conscious minds.

It is almost like we are talking to someone else.

In addition to the subconscious, the born-again person has a portion of God’s supernatural Spirit. This supernatural can also commune with the human mind.

PSALM 77:6   I commune with mine own heart:

“Commune” means talk to and then listen to the response. This all happened inside David.

So, a human being can commune with himself.

NEHEMIAH 5:7   Then I consulted with myself,

“Consult” means to debate by asking questions and listening to answers and ideas.

Yet this flow of information happens internally. People speak to themselves far more often than they realize. It is a good technique for clarifying one’s ideas by trying to explain the issue to oneself.

The Holy Spirit operates in small portions outside the Body of Jesus

The Holy Spirit involves God projecting Himself and operating outside the Body of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit breaks up into smaller pieces as it did on the Day of Pentecost where small flames sat on 120 people.

Because Christ is both Man and God, the portion of the Holy Spirit that comes into a person down on earth brings a supernatural element as well as the true human nature that God wants that person to be. Thus, their old human nature can die out.

The Holy Spirit does not involve the physical Body of Christ.

The Holy Spirit does involve the humanity or human spirit of Christ as it brings to each person that portion of Christ’s humanity that was intended for them. When you consider the whole church over 2000 years then the Holy Spirit covers all of Christ’s humanity that was divided amongst all the believers over that time period.

The Father does not involve the physical Body of Christ. The Father does not involve the humanity of Christ.

The Son of God does not involve the supernatural God. The Son is the human Man that the supernatural God fully dwelled in.

God cannot change, so the fulness of the Godhead always dwelled in Christ

COLOSSIANS 2:9   For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Christ as a Man is not God. God is not flesh and blood.

But you are everything that is in you.

Thus, Christ is God because all of God fully dwelled in Him.

That is why Jesus was equal to God.

PHILIPPIANS 2:6   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But Jesus never said he was equal to the Father.

JOHN 14:28   … for my Father is greater than I.

The supernatural Spirit was in control of the human Man.

JOHN 10:30   I and my Father are one.

Subconscious and conscious form one mind. But the subconscious is far more powerful.

It makes our hearts beat and makes us breathe while we are fast asleep.

All of the supernatural God was in Christ as a Man and there His human attributes developed. In his human nature were all His future born-again converts.

The supernatural red Spirit (in the above diagram) was the Father.

The (yellow) human nature and the physical Body formed the Son.

The Holy Spirit is the combined supernatural and human nature.

As the Holy Spirit, that has to be projected outside the Body of Christ in small measures as each born-again convert receives their small portion of the Holy Spirit, both the human and the supernatural attributes. That allocated portion of the Spirit then grows within the body of each believer by destroying the original human spirit that they were born with. Each individual becomes a new creation with a new human nature, that is part of Christ’s Spirit, as their old nature dies.

The portion of the Holy Spirit in each person is not all of God’s Spirit, just a small measure. So, the Bible never says “God the Holy Spirit”. That would mean all of God’s Spirit was in some man or some woman. Impossible.

The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit

A Trinity statement: “The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, distinct in roles, one in nature and that nature is God”.

That sounds good.

The Father is the supernatural Spirit that fully dwells in Christ.

The Son is the human Man.

The Holy Spirit combines the human and the supernatural characteristics. We receive the Holy Spirit is small amounts as the Spirit is projected into our hearts from Jesus Who sits on the Throne of God. These believers thus receive a Christlike character or Spirit.

The problem comes when you compare the Trinity to the Bible.

“Trinity” or “triune” are unscriptural words that do not help us to be Scriptural. We can’t build up a Scriptural doctrine on unscriptural statements that contradict Scripture.

One-God-in-three-Persons comes from Greek philosophy, not from the Bible.

“Father and Son are of the same essence”. Essence means whatever you want it to mean. It is a fuzzy word that explains nothing. It is unscriptural and also comes from Greek philosophy.

“God the Son” is unscriptural. This comes from pagan Babylon. Nimrod was the only man called God the Son, as he was known as “El Bar”.

Trinity requires that “Father and Son are co-equal”. There is no such Scripture.

“Eternal Sonship” is another unscriptural statement.

So, Trinity takes us far away from Scripture.


The name of God is difficult to discern

"Lord" is a title translated from the Hebrew Jehovah or JHVH.

"Christ" is a title meaning Anointed One.  Christos in the Greek.

The word Jehovah is never mentioned in the New Testament.

“God the Father” is never mentioned in the Old Testament.

As the Father, God was above the Jews in the Old Testament. They called Him "Jehovah". This is translated as "Lord". Hebrew ceased to be the language of God when the New Testament started as it was written in Greek. The Jews understood Hebrew but killed the Messiah. So, understanding Hebrew never taught them the truth.

The Son was Emmanuel, God with us.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth that was with them and would be in them. Jesus said, “I am the Truth”.

JOHN 14:17   Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Father is God ABOVE Jews.      Son is God WITH Jews.       Holy Ghost is God IN the church.

Old Testament                                 4 Gospels                                 New Testament

Jehovah (Hebrew)                                    Jesus                              Christos (Greek)

Lord                                                            Jesus                               Christ

The only name is Jesus.

That is the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

That sums up God’s complete Plan of salvation.

God, as the Father, set the standards for redemption in the Old Testament.

He was the only One Who could fulfil the standards of redemption in the Four Gospels that unite the two Testaments. That was only possible because God was fully in Christ, the Son.

Then God has to get the members of His church to become born again and grow in grace so that a portion of His Spirit could be manifest in each believer and control that person to grow and find his or her position in God’s great Body, the Bride of Jesus Christ. God, as the Holy Ghost, is in each church member to guide and control them.

You will never see the Spirit of the supernatural Father


If we get to the new heaven and new earth, will we see God the Father? 

You cannot see a spirit. They are invisible.

Consider the real world.

There is visible matter (the Son) like trees and there is invisible energy (the Father) that cannot be seen. But the behaviour of the visible branches and leaves of the trees as they move reveals the presence of the invisible energy in the wind.

JOHN 14:8   Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

:9     Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

The words and behaviour of the Man Jesus (the Son) show us the nature of the invisible, indwelling supernatural Spirit of the Father.

You will only observe the behaviour and actions of the Man Jesus Who is controlled by that indwelling supernatural Spirit.

HEBREWS 1:3   Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

The second commandment said that man must make no images or idols. Because all images of God would be dead and severely limited and inaccurate.

In due time God would make an image of Himself, Jesus Christ the Man.

In that image, the fulness of God could dwell and fully achieve His Plan and Purpose with mankind.

GENESIS 1:26   And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

GENESIS 1:27   So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

John 4:24   God is a Spirit

The attributes of humanity were a part of God’s Spirit.

This is shown as a black dot inside the red shape that represents the Spirit of God.

Adam, in order to be in the image of God, must also have been a spirit with different attributes within him.

God became flesh and that human Man Jesus was put into the sleep of death on the cross. A spear pierced His side and blood and water flowed. Life, or Spirit, also left His Body.

From these three elements that left Him, Jesus brought forth a Bride during 7 church ages.

From His cleansing blood (Justification) and the washing of water of the Word (Sanctification), God brought forth a Bride church that He filled with His Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost baptism).

Then the Holy Spirit would guide the end-time Bride into all truth.

JOHN 16:13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

In Genesis Chapter 2, God put the spirit of Adam into a body of flesh. Then God put him to sleep and from his side He took a rib from which He made a woman as the bride of Adam.

Thus, in the original spirit of Adam there must have been feminine attributes that could make a woman.

GENESIS 5:2   Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

God created the spirit of Adam with both masculine and feminine characteristics. As a human spirit both the masculine and feminine aspects of humanity shared the same name.

The future Bride church would want to take on the name of Her Husband by getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

ACTS 2:38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.” — 1 Corinthians 16:23